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It seems to me like lots of Multi-Level Marketers want to position involvement in their businesses as "self employment."
I've sat thru a few pitches, and now tend to reject any "business proposition" as soon as the phrase "build your downline" gets introduced.
I also have a very adverse reaction when listening to someone talk about their "business" and they get farther and farther from any actual product, and instead wax on about the possibilities of building your "business," etc. -- witness a thread in this very Tribe pitching involvement in such a scheme, without even mentioning what the actual product is.
I've known quite a few people who have put a lot of juice into building their "businesses" and, after countless hours and thankless sales work, come up either upside down or just empty-handed.
So... are there any success stories? Have any members of this Tribe had good, rewarding experiences with any MLM systems, that actually approximate "self employment?" Assuming a level of remunerative success, do you also have a real connection with a product or service? Or is it just about stuffing the downline?
I'm all ears, I'd like to hear success stories; if there really is self-directed work that has a valuable impact and is organized this way, tell me; my pre-conception is that most MLM is really pyramid schemes, with a scant number of get-rich-quick winners at the top and a wiiiiide base of losers at the bottom and middle. By all means, show me why I'm wrong.
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Re: MLM vs. Self-Employed: The same? Any success stories?
Wed, November 16, 2005 - 10:13 PMMLM is scam, where people who perpetuate it (at the top of the pyramid) sell a dream of wealth, success, freedom and easy income to others. A pot of gold at the end of the rainbow, a praying mantis who preys on people's insecurities and greed.
It has little/nothing to do with people selling products, the product is just a front to keep it legal. The profits at the top of the pyramid are made by the losses of the investors ("self-employed" MLMers who are brainwashed to do whever it takes to "build their business").
MLM is "pay to play" - you have to pay for the membersihp, products, training materials and more. The scam involves selling the dream, the "opportunity" and profiting from the losses of the salespeople who are bound to fail.
Statistics show that 99.1% of people who become "independent distributors" lose money. The "theory" is nice, but in this day and age, the only way to profit is to start your own, and scam and decieve thousands of people.
Just look up "MLM scam" on Google, and you will start to get the drift. -
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Re: MLM vs. Self-Employed: The same? Any success stories?
Wed, November 16, 2005 - 10:15 PMthe "success stories" that the MLM religion, heresay and propaganda is rife with, are pretty much ALL LIES.
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Unsu...
Re: MLM vs. Self-Employed: The same? Any success stories?
Thu, November 17, 2005 - 6:35 PMHi David
I respectfully disagree with Bret. As with anything in life, there are good, honest people and then there are the others. As with any profession, as well, there are success stories and not. There are good doctors/bad doctors. There are good lawyers (maybe not a whole lot) and bad.
I believe is it highly erroneous to say that all MLM's are all a scam and that there are only a few people at the top that make it. This has not been my experience at all. In fact, my experience has been that we are seeing a huge shift in direct sales and there a lot of really good people out there who are treating like a real business and are doing away with the antiquated methods of network marketing that did leave many with a bad taste in their mouths.
There is a new generation of network marketers that see the value and get the opportunity that is available. Yes, there are still sharks in the water and there are also good, honest hard-working people who beleive in their product and are really assiting people in getting started.
I have two undergrad degress and my husband has an MBA in Accounting and we have both done a lot of personal work. We are in a network marketing company that we really enjoy.
We have experienced great results and love the product.
I get to work from home and I get to determine my level of success. I find that to be more comforting and secure then working for a paycheck forever. It is a way to start a business for very little.
The main problem I see in the industry is that a lot of people get really excited(for the first time in a long time) and are told they are gonna be rich next year and think that if they order a little product and go to a dorky meeting that they will be successful. Not gonna happen!
It takes work. Building anything does. The beautiful thing is the idea of residual income. you don't get that with too many, if any, jobs.
That is my experience....Be well! Carrie -
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Re: MLM vs. Self-Employed: The same? Any success stories?
Thu, November 17, 2005 - 11:49 PMCarrie,
Nice theories.
Show me the money. -
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Re: MLM vs. Self-Employed: The same? Any success stories?
Fri, November 18, 2005 - 6:27 AMWhat about a MLM program that is free to join and never requires you to buy anything? how could that be a scam? I mean I want some input on how this could be a scam, if someone really worked hard at it?
ld.net/chazcom
I really want someone to check it out and pick it apart! -
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Re: MLM vs. Self-Employed: The same? Any success stories?
Fri, November 18, 2005 - 9:47 AMChaz,
The website you listed appears to be solictings people as unpaid sales rep for a fly-by-night telephone carrier. They don't pay you for your efforts - only IF you make money for people at the top some money, they will shave a few crums of commisson of for you. They might not take your money upfront, but they do want lots of your time which could be productively channled into something else. I personally wouldn't consider this "self-employed". And with Cingular, Version and a million mexican calling card companies fiercely competing - I don't see a hot majot market forming for an unknown affiliate-based telecom company anytime soon.
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Carrie,
I know you are probably a nice person, and not consciously out to get anyone - but I would be willing to wager the laptop I am typing on - that you do not currently earn signifcant income with your network marketing efforts, and you never will. Not becase you are bad person, but becase they entire "business" model (over-recruiting sales reps in the same territory) is destined to fail.
Product based MLMs were once a workable idea -- from the 1930's upuntil the advent of the internet and e-commerce.
But in the 21st century, with spam and froogle and all that...
Actual chances of making any "long term residual income" with any product-based pyramid-scheme (network marketing "opportunity") in the 21st century, is pretty much NIL. ZERO.
Starting a business is expensive and hard. MLMs know this, and offer an "easy way". They sell sell the dream and illusion of owning YOUR own business, while proffiting handsomely off your your losses (time, energy, phonecalls, gas, meetings, marketing materials - if not purchased product stock and training material, frenchise fees) in order to sell THEIR products. -
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Unsu...
Re: MLM vs. Self-Employed: The same? Any success stories?
Fri, November 18, 2005 - 9:56 AMI guess you seem to know more than Fortune magazine, Robert Kiyosaki, David Bach, and many other notable authors and financially successful people who have noted the enormous potential of our industry. I don't need, or want your laptop, but I do make a significant income.
I am a nice person. Have you actually ever been in a MLM? Have a great day! Carrie -
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Re: MLM vs. Self-Employed: The same? Any success stories?
Fri, November 18, 2005 - 3:23 PMI haven't been in an MLM. Because I haven't seen a deal I want to get involved in, yet. I've sat thru a few pitches, and even accompanied a friend of mine to a whole series of meetings -- she was sold on the opportunity, and wanted to share her excitement with me -- I eventually hit my exit point, and shared my reasons why, and my on-line research about the company in question, with her; we respectfully parted ways.
She proceeded to waste *countless* hours going to meetings, hosting meetings (bought all the refreshments herself, naturally), cajoling people, stocking up on product -- basically all that Brett described -- before *finally* giving up on it after another year. Okay, she had built a stable of 15 members or so of downline that she ostensibly still has, but they weren't producing much either, so the amount of money she actually generated was perhaps a few hundred dollars a year, *before* her expenses. She was, understandably, bitter.
There was the Amway dirivitive, I've merciufully forgotten the name
There was in fact a cellular & calling card company, but not the same one Chaz pointed us to
There was the vitamins one
There was the essential oils one -- a guy I know claims "huge" success with that one, but I don't trust him -- he's slimy.
All of these I evaluated, and all of them turned me off. But, as Carrie says, there is a "new generation" of companies who swear that "theirs is different." So, my query was - and is - an honest exploration of what is.
I'll accept Carrie's claim that she enjoys success at it, I don't really need proof -- what is the product, Carrie? Should we join you?
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Unsu...
Re: MLM vs. Self-Employed: The same? Any success stories?
Sat, November 19, 2005 - 9:58 AMIf you have any hesitation about network marketing, I would not recommend that you do it, or even try it. For that matter, if you have hesitation, or even a little doubt/skepticism about starting your own business selling whatever, I would not recommend it.
Success begins with attitude and a knowing that you will succeed. If you are buying into a lot of the whiney complainers that post things on the MLM watch, then, I believe, a person will attract that kind of energy into thier experience. Self-fullfilling prophecy. The same guy who has that website, MLM watch I believe has another one that completely rips on any kind of alternative healthcare-I find him to very negative and whiney-not a person I want to allow into my space. For the number of people who rip on MLM, I kind find just as many who have positive experiences with it.
When people fail(and many do at any business, not just MLM) they want to blame someone other than themselves. If there are many who do actually make money in some companies and some who don't, is it the company, or the individual? Bottom line, people don't want to be accountable when they fail. If I can blame it on the system, then I don't have to change and I can continue seeking confirmation that it is all a scam by joining forces with other people who have failed who want to blame the system, or "the man."
What I would recommend, is a book called Secrets of the Millionaire Mind, by T. Harv Eker. Also, Ask and It Is Given, by Abraham-Hicks.
Just my thoughts..........Have a great saturday! carrie -
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Re: MLM vs. Self-Employed: The same? Any success stories?
Sat, November 19, 2005 - 10:44 AMRight. I've never heard of "MLM Watch" site.
Carrie, without taking away from ANYthing you have said, I would simply point out that you still haven't shared with us what the *product* you are involved in, is.
My original query remains open: I'm interested in success stories in MLM, including specific models/projects where the product is real and the participants are connected with the product. Speaking strictly for myself, any project -- MLM or otherwise -- where the participants are more intested in the process than the the product, isn't going to work for me.
One of my main turn-offs on the various specific projects I listed in an earlier post was the emphasis on the process / building downline, rather than the product(s) at hand. (The Amway dirivative was Quickstar).
There isn't any need for anyone to get all defensive (or, offensive for that matter). This is a tribe for exploring self-employment; lots of MLM dangles that carrot -- I'm looking for success stories.
I've supported myself for 8+ years as a sole proprietor, providing a service -- not selling a product. I work as a computer consultant and database developer to small biz. I'm genuinely self-employed, file a schedule C, have a stable of clients. That's my success story. What's yours? -
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.Unsu...
Re: MLM vs. Self-Employed: The same? Any success stories?
Sat, November 19, 2005 - 11:10 AMYes, this is a tribe for exploring self-employment, which MLM is, but after reading some of the other posts is has appeared that several people were coming down pretty hard on MLM. So, that doesn't really feel like exploring to me.
I agree that one should lead with the product or service instead of solely focusing on the bus. opp. And, finding people who want to build the business is also part of what we do.
Aside from the MLM I am in, I have been a self-employed classical pianist and yoga teacher. I have been successful in all and what I love the most about all three is that I am very passionate about what I do.
My website is www.planet-agel.com and the company site is www.agel.com
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Re: MLM vs. Self-Employed: The same? Any success stories?
Sat, November 19, 2005 - 12:10 PMDavid,
If you want to start to get a glimpse into the hypnotic cult world of false hopes, broken dreams and greed that is MLM, I suggest you read an excellent article "What's wrong with MLM?" --
www.vandruff.com/mlm.html
And check out the following websites as well:
www.mlmwatch.org
www.quatloos.com/mlm/mlm.htm
www.mlmsurvivor.com
MLM is anything but self-employment. You are total tool, on a commission basis, for a shady company. It is worse than being pimped, for no money, on a treadmill to nowhere an unworkable business model - that is absolutely destined to fail.
If you choose to believe the "fake it till you make it" confidence and cult enthuiasm of MLM perpetuators and brainwashees - and their alleged success stories - you can't say you weren't warned.
I am "against" MLM scams because they decieve and take money from naive and well-intended people, tarnish the entrpunerial spirit, and they give "self-employment" and "home based businesses" a bad name. -
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Re: MLM vs. Self-Employed: The same? Any success stories?
Sat, November 19, 2005 - 12:16 PM
What's Wrong With Multi-Level Marketing?
(exerpted from www.vandruff.com/mlm.html )
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a.k.a. "Networking" Companies
Bad Image or Bad Reality?
"Let me tell you about an incredible ground-level business opportunity," and you are invited to a house or to lunch for "a discussion." Funny enough, you feel sick in your gut that there is some hidden agenda or deception. "Probably a multi-level marketing (MLM) organization," you think. Suppose it is? Should you trust your instincts? Is there anything wrong with MLM?
This article will analyze four problem areas with MLM. Specifically, it will focus on problems of I) Market Saturation, II) Pyramid Structure, III) Morality and Ethics, and IV) Relationship Issues associated with MLMs. Thus, you can properly assess your "instincts."
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I. Market Saturation: An Inherent Problem
Back to the Basics
A tutorial on market saturation hardly seems necessary in most business discussions, but with MLM, unfortunately, it is. Common sense seems to get suspended when considering if MLMs are viable, even theoretically, as a profitable means of distribution for all parties involved. This suspension is created by a heightened expectation of "easy money," but more on that later.
New, Innovative?
MLM can no longer claim to be new and, thus, exempt from the normal rules of the market and the way goods and services are sold. They have been tried and, for the most part, have failed. Some have been miserable failures in spite of offering excellent products.
Marketing innovations are not rare in the modern world, as evidenced by the success of Wal-Mart, which found a more efficient and profitable way to distribute goods and services than the status quo, providing lasting value to stockholders, employees, distributors, and consumers. But this is not the case with any MLM to date, and after 25 years of failed attempts, it is time to point out the reasons why.
Don't Some People Make Money in MLM?
First, we will analyze the "driving mechanism" of MLMs. We will detail how they are intrinsically unstable, guaranteed by design to oversaturate the market with no one noticing. We will look at why MLMs can never equalize into profitability the way companies in the real world can, so that the result will be that the organization as a whole cannot, even in theory, be profitable. When this inevitable destiny occurs, the only money to be made is not from the product or service but from the losses of people lower down in the organization.
Thus the MLM organization becomes exploitative, and many high-level MLM promoters have been shut down, the "executives" incarcerated, for selling the fraud of impossible success to others. Other, larger MLMs have survived by hiring large batteries of attorneys to ward off federal prosecutors, even bragging about the funds they have in reserve for this purpose.
The unfortunate "distributor" at the bottom is the loser, and once this becomes apparent beyond all the slick videotapes and motivational pep-talks, good people start to get a bad taste in their mouths about the whole situation.
So, yes, money can be made with MLM. The question is whether the money being made is legitimate or "made" via a sophisticated con scheme. And if MLM is "doomed by design" to fail, then the answer is, unfortunately, the latter.
But how exactly does this happen, and must it always? -
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Re: MLM vs. Self-Employed: The same? Any success stories?
Sat, November 19, 2005 - 2:14 PMit appears that AGEL is a recruiting MLM pyramid scheme, that is eager to get new assoicates signed up on an "AutoShip" program where they are billed
a minimum of $120 a month in flavored vitamin jelly candy - to unload on friends and relatives. -
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Unsu...
Re: MLM vs. Self-Employed: The same? Any success stories?
Sat, November 19, 2005 - 2:27 PMGood luck to all of you in your endeavors. I am leaving this tribe. Brett, we fill out 1099's/schedule C's when in network marketing. Correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't that mean you are self-employed by definition?
Your description of Agel is just absoluetly wrong and really not worth the time to reply to. -
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Unsu...
Re: MLM vs. Self-Employed: The same? Any success stories?
Sat, November 19, 2005 - 4:31 PMDid anyone actually click on the link that brett included, which is where he is gathering his information? It is www.vandruff.com . it explains a lot to me anyway. They appear to be online preachers or something. Hmm......... -
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Re: MLM vs. Self-Employed: The same? Any success stories?
Sat, April 4, 2009 - 4:51 PMIt seems that this post is too long ago..But I just want to clarify MLM and self-employed is not the same..MLM is more on delearship or franchising..Before you will join any MLM, make sure that there is a product involved and not money only..Also make sure that the marketing plan is fair to all..Meaning not only the uplines will get the commission but also the downlines..It is not an easy job but it will really make ou a millionaire..How? Be patient, work smart and hard at the same time..You can checkout this MLM in the Philippines, very good Marketing plan and products that's why all dealers are getting paid equally..No matter if you join last, you will be able to meet the same commission of the top 1 because they only have maximum income per dealer..Everything is fair..Product is awesome! It can be use from 6mos.old baby upto the eldest person on earth..Market is the whole world..If you are interested on more stories about this email me gladys_anne_uy@dell.com.. -
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Re: MLM vs. Self-Employed: The same? Any success stories?
Wed, October 7, 2009 - 3:49 PMMost businesses fail, be it online or 'bricks-and-mortar'. The remaining businesses still in operation - think of your local corner store - operate on bank loans and existing customers. Online MLM's hook a prospect by stating that millions of people all over the world can access a business of yours, because they can access it. The same can be said about 7/11's near any school. BUT.... any business owner in either sphere that cannot sell or promote and market their business, and treat that as 75% of their business expenses, will fail.
The problem with MLM is that you are dependant on your downline being as committed as you are: To be leaders, to be marketers, to be salesman. If they have had enough, or give up, your business is screwed.
Just because you paid someone upfront to teach you what to do doesn't mean that, when it fails, it is a scam. Look into yourself. If you cannot operate a corner store and be a salesman for your own business, you ain't going to survive online either. If you expand your business plan into a franchise of stores, or become part of an expanding MLM, you must ensure that your unit managers are still working ful ltime - and beyond, just like you do.
Beleive me, as someone with no more life savings, I know.
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